A Story of Coincidence and Chance

I think

bcholmes comment below sums up my responses well.

I'd add two things. One is that the reason LGBT groups should engage in outreach to communities of color is because a group that is engaged in social activism focused on equality, should form coalitions to other oppressed groups. Second is that it's difficult for me to have a "head-in-the-sand attitude towards race" because race and racism affects me every day. I'm not white. I'm a queer black woman. One who gave money to the "No on Prop 8" campaign.

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xthlcm.livejournal.com

(my first reply wound up in the parent, for some reason. Reposting here...)

I didn't know you were black (yay Internet!). So yeah, "head in the sand" definitely doesn't apply. My apologies for the amusingly off-target insult.

I'd still argue that the tone of your post Is Not Helpful. When you start out by trying to prove that the minority vote didn't lose us Prop 8, and imply that to believe otherwise is racist, that tends to undermine your followup argument: we really need to reach out to POC in order to reach marriage equality!

Anyway, I think we agree on what's needed to achieve what we both want. I do think, however, that you framed your point in a contradictory and inflammatory way that can have a chilling effect on that outreach.

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I'm not sure if this is where you're coming from or not, but one thing that jumps to mind is that it's a very common thing for white people to have the "That's Not Helpful" reaction merely at the mention of the word 'racism'. And, well, I think that gets in the way of trying to have any conversation about the many, many ways that racism operates.

Again: no idea if that's applicable here. I'm just sayin'.

Otherwise, I appreciate the openness with which you're talking about this.

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First of all, policing someone's tone is a really common technique used to shut down discussions of racism.

Second, I wrote that post because I was absolutely furious at watching white LGBT people and allies blame people of color for Prop. 8 while totally ignoring the fact that white voters who voted "yes" were the bulk of people who voted that shit in (and who proposed it, and who funded it). This wasn't a well crafted bit of debate, but me being pissed off at getting blamed for Prop. 8 when I gave money to No on 8, I am an activist (both online and offline) and hey I'm a queer black person.

Third, you what I find inflammatory? Blaming people of color for homophobic legislation. You know I find to have a chilling affect on coalition building and outreach between LGBT people and communities of color? Blaming people of color when things go wrong.

Lastly, this isn't an intellectual debate for me. This is about people who I thought were my allies, deciding to toss me under the bus.

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Wow. Good points.

Just about everything you've said on this topic has helped me appreciate, more fully, just how much work needs to happen. Thank you for that.

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kat-chan.livejournal.com

This conversation is why, for all of the high-minded talk of the election proving how we're "over race" down here, we're so totally not. Just because white people came out and voted for a black guy doesn't prove a damned thing. Especially in an election went the GOP should have suffered the spanking they received. Racism is still an issue here, and it still will be an issue as long as people make racist statements and then try and say they're not being racist when called on their shit.

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if i may...

1) we are all permitted our righteous anger and its honest expression. there are certainly moments when intellectualization just isn't appropriate. but entering into loose statistical analyses invites a more complex response than just a chorus of "yea".

2) the anger you feel about being tossed under the bus by those you may have seen as avowed or natural allies is exactly the same furious frustration felt by (some of) those whose comments you are angry at.

3) i think that the call of "racism" is a common technique of shutting down or derailing useful discussions about race.

4) everyone needs to get this out of their systems, get heard, and get on with it.

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i think that the call of "racism" is a common technique of shutting down or derailing useful discussions about race.

For the record, I disagree with that point, strongly. I think that's a reaction that white people need to get over and get over quickly.

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ok, let's discuss.

clearly, racism is fully and widely operative. it is even possible that most things that are considered racist (by those with the cultural authority to make the claim) in fact are. the comments noted by the OP and yourself may indeed be racist.

but they are also more than that. and the term "racism" has a tendency, i feel, to collapse all discussion about the things in question into a big black box that is all about itself, and not at all about the things that lead into and out of it. it vastly oversimplifies perspectives, conclusions and consequences.

not to say that it is not often exactly what-it-is. and a continuing awareness of it ought to lead to observations that are less inflammatory and more measured. offering myself as an example, i am constantly self-editing in this regard, being at least as prone to heedless generalizations as anyone else, yet sufficiently well-socialized to have working re-think loops.

i have already agreed that it is inappropriate to "blame" non-whites for the passing of Prop 8. but the accusing finger of racism - which in some instances of that blaming may even be merited - raises a prohibition rather than a question.

thank you for the link pam spaulding's comments on the subject. as usual, i think she puts it all pretty near perfectly.

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*nod*

I think I have a lot of things I'm inclined to say, here (and am struggling a bit with putting them all into words).

One of the points that leaps immediately to mind is a post that a friend made on Usenet regarding men and feminism. At the point my friend had made her comments, some guys (Sensitive New-Age Guys, to boot) were stating that feminist anger about sexism was the key thing that was turning them off of feminism.

My friend argued (and I agree with her) that withholding their support of feminism until feminism acts according to their terms was a form of power. That making conversations about sexism comfortable for men was, while in some sense productive, essentially an example of how the master's tools are, once again, going to help improve the master's house.

And I think I see this conversation about racism much the same way. I don't claim to have done anywhere near enough anti-racist education, but I have observed how every conversation about racism I've had with white folks has had to spend an inordinate amount of time making white folks comfortable with even the implication that there might be less-than-perfect behaviours around race.

I see many, many people have knee-jerk reactions to words like 'privilege' or 'racism' and then use that as an excuse to not take part in the conversation -- I think that opting-out behaviour exemplifies a form of white privilege that's pretty icky. And pretty invisible to the people who are wielding it.

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all good points.

i'm well familiar with the "you're an angry person so i'm not going to listen to you" thing. it's infantalizing, and further infuriating, which is often the point. it is certainly a standard strategy used against trans people, who are often pretty damned twitchy to begin with, and easy to trigger.

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How Not To Be Insane When Accused Of Racism (A Guide For White People)
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/02/how-not-to-be-insane-when-accused-of-racism/

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My google-fu was failing me mere moments ago when I was trying to find that article!

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That's why I have.....http://delicious.com/starkeymonster/forcluelesswhitepeople

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followed the link. found the debunkingwhite group. read the faq.

now have a swirl in my head about the uneasy overlaps between anti-racist, feminist, queer-positive and trans-positive interests.

coalition is always hard. perhaps it should be. work = consciousness.

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it's interesting, the shades that the term "racism" apparently takes on in different contexts. as ampersand describes it, the charge may amount to little more than "you've just made an inaccurate and potentially offensive generalization about people of color." which is quite a bit less loaded than i think many understand it.

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Only being able to accept that you did something racist, when someone couches it in the nicest terms possible, is a huge example of white privilege. Also, digging up stats, election maps, and giving a long list of examples explaining why accusing blacks of passing Prop. 8 is showing how people are making an inaccurate and offensive generalization based on race. You know, a racist generalization.

Also,

witchqueen went looking for examples of times when someone's use of a nice polite tone was successful here (http://zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com/429727.html).

"In livejournal mediafandom, no one has observed tone successfully used as a mitigating factor, or they have not so far come forward to admit this."

" First of all, not everyone is going to follow the rational, dispassionate argument, but some people are really good at the emotional logic. When they see that actual people are actually saddened or enraged by something, that’s when the issue achieves importance to them. (Which isn’t to say call such people irrational or unable to follow logic, but that they have either a communication style or a value system where emotion rates higher when they’re deciding what to care about in human relations today.)

Second, just because a person of color opens her mouth about race or racism, that does not mean she’s volunteering to teach for a day. Sometimes, screaming at livejournal is what one does instead of cutting a bitch. Sometimes, she’s calling on other people to go attack some Big Fandom Fail. Sometimes, she’s pulling a fandomwank and inviting people to watch the big mess which is going to occur in 5-4-3-2-1. Whatever it is, it doesn’t have to be class sesson 237 of Racism 101.

Last but not least, people losing their shit perform a valuable service for those of us who are about to pull out the chalkboards and learn ignorant folks. They expand the margins, so that a calm and dispassionate tone looks like a regular person talking, at least in contrast to the crazy, scary person over there."

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ok.

but my point was that ampersand's post appeared to soften the idea of the accusation of racism, as if being told that one has made a racist utterance is of little more consequence than being told that one has farted in a closed room. which is not, i think, how the term is usually received, or meant.

for the record, i am all for people losing their shit. a good rant is often far more instructive and vital than an essay.

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another thought (sorry if i'm nattering... this is all too interesting and useful):

my perception of the expected reaction to the statement "what you've just said is racist" is a cessation of discussion of whatever the original question is, and a dismissal of whatever perspectives were being offered as either out of bounds or beneath consideration.

if i take ampersand's advice to heart, then the proper reaction is "oh? ok... now, back to my problem with this..."

which sort of works both ways. either "racism" is a comma, or it is a full stop, and that depends on both parties to the conversation.

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if i take ampersand's advice to heart, then the proper reaction is "oh? ok... now, back to my problem with this..."

Why not, "I truly apologize, but thank you for calling me out on that. Would you be willing to say more?"

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that could also work.

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2) the anger you feel about being tossed under the bus by those you may have seen as avowed or natural allies is exactly the same furious frustration felt by (some of) those whose comments you are angry at.

FYI, I'm a queer person.

I'm furious that my own community is throwing me under the bus. I'm furious that my community ignored my existence (and the existence of many other queer people of color). I'm furious that people think being upset/angry/hurt/frustrated is an excuse for being racist.

When I'm in a anger induced rage coma, I still manage to not say and racist things (or sexist, homophobic, transphobic, etc.). I'm sure I will at some point say something horrible in a fit of anger, that doesn't mean it would be OK for me to do that because my emotions were running high. It would still be wrong, and I should still be called out on it.

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yes, i got that. a QWOC, if i'm not mistaken? (we all seem to be acronym-happy now.)

i live in the DC area. i have seen first-hand the marginalization of black queerness by the local gay institution. i have also watched local black transwomen struggle with the issues that are specific to their communities, and the conflicts between them. we are, quite frankly, a very clannish town. (it may be the same elsewhere... i don't have that broad a frame of reference.)

if you are able to marshall your rage in such a way as to scrupulously avoid -ist generalizations, than you are a truly remarkable and extremely disciplined person.

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if you are able to marshall your rage in such a way as to scrupulously avoid -ist generalizations, than you are a truly remarkable and extremely disciplined person.

I think this response surprises me. My worldview is that, living in a racist/sexist/whatever culture, leftist activist-type people will slip up and do or say stuff that is problematic, but that it is remarkable (with a negative connotation) when people do so. And should be rare.

You comment sounds like you can easily excuse bad behaviour when the speaker is very angry. I *get* bad behaviour, but I don't find it easy to excuse.

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