Racism isn't just "a card" some people "play"

[bcholmes]

Blaming people of color for Prop. 8 passing in California is racist. So cut it the fuck out. Ditto for veiling your racism with "this is because of turnout for Obama" or "you know how conservative those immigrants can be."

sparkymonster states one of those things that I wanted to believe was obvious, but which apparently is not.

Edit: Here's another good response to the "let's blame the brown people" phenomenon.

Edit the second: Here's a statistical analysis of a white election.

Edit the third: Daily Kos has a good analysis, too!

Comments

[elphie.livejournal.com]

I disagree. 95% of African-Americans in California voted for Obama, and 70%ish of them voted for Prop 8. That means the majority of African-American voters in California simultaneously voted for Prop 8 and Obama. Yes, it makes me angry to see people on one hand casting a vote for one of the greatest advances in civil rights in America, and then with other hand casting a vote to deny another group the right to marry someone they love.

I certainly think it is inappropriate to blame individuals for the actions of the majority of their demographic group. I am equally angry at white voters who voted for Obama and Prop 8, and I know several African-Americans who voted against Prop 8. However, when we rise to the community level and think about who we form alliances with I think the queer community should think twice about allying with the African-American community on a macro level.

[nex0s.livejournal.com]

Oh! All 6.5% of African American's in California! Wow!

Check out starkeymonster's statistics and contemplate again.

N.

[bcholmes.livejournal.com]

I invite you to read sparkymonster's points on this.

Here's just one point that, in my opinion, is important:

Oh and don't forget to be annoyed that the No on Prop. 8 campaign did not campaign effectively (if at all) in communities of color or engage in coalition building.

Clearly campaigning was an important part of the "No on 8" movement. Nobody believed that it was just okay to skip campaigning. But then you take communities that you can't be bothered to campaign to and get huffy that they didn't vote the way you wanted. Hm.

[indefatigable42.livejournal.com]

I wrote a bunch of stuff questioning the statistics, but I don't really care about the statistics. This is all based on exit polls -- the number of people who say they voted one way or another -- right?

People have blithered on so much about this Bradley effect, where white people say they'll vote for a black man and then turn around and vote against him. This is another example. Yeah, it could happen, but there's no knowing for sure.

...I think the queer community should think twice about allying with the African-American community on a macro level.

What does it mean for two communities to ally themselves together on a 'macro' level anyways? There are homophobic blacks, and there are racist queers. Being a victim of discrimination or hate doesn't mean someone is going to be more sympathetic to someone else who's in the same boat for a different reason.

I was just thrilled to see Obama standing up there and verbally acknowledging that gay Americans are not second-class citizens. If there really is less acceptance of homosexuality among certain racial minorities, this is the time for the ones who want to accept each other to step up and do it.

[indefatigable42.livejournal.com]

Also -- the more I read that bit about communities refusing to ally with each other, the more ticked off I get.

To say that the black community is not worth the queer community's time says two things: (1) that you think blacks are harder to convince than whites or any other group, and therefore it isn't worth working with the ones who are on your side; and (2) that you're giving up on the people who are queer and black and who need help more than anyone else, that because they're black there's no hope for them.

[cantkeepsilent.livejournal.com]

I respect your anger. But "We lost because *they* voted" sets off a lot of disenfranchisement triggers in the civil rights communities. It's what the bad guys say and do behind closed doors, except that they are cautious enough to use sneaky catchphrases when speaking in public.

I've always been an ally of the GLBT community, and I trust that I always will be. But minority turnout in elections is a great thing, and I hope it grows so much that they can't ever be ignored. One of the socio-political catchphrases that has never sat well with me is "Educating you is not my job", and Tuesday was a object lesson in what happens when that job goes undone.

[griffen.livejournal.com]

What she said.

What I'm pissed off about is that significant numbers of various groups (not just racial groups) voted to strip me, my husband, my father, my mother, many of my friends, and many of my co-workers and co-students of our rights. Any excuse for that pisses me off, because there is none. Don't give me lame crap excuses about traditions or beliefs. NOTHING excuses what happened yesterday. NOTHING. It was un-American. It was a dog-in-the-manger, fuck-you-Jack-I-got-mine behavior that NO minority should have exhibited.

Don't you dare tell me I'm racist when there is factual evidence that many groups are homophobic and bigoted. Don't you dare.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

when we rise to the community level and think about who we form alliances with I think the queer community should think twice about allying with the African-American community on a macro level.

Does your 'queer community' as referenced here include gay Black people?

[supergee.livejournal.com]

There are plenty of stupid white people to blame. They are no better than We are, for most values of They and We.

[cigfran-lwyd.livejournal.com]

disagree a bit with the tone/trend.

one of the points regularly brought up in relevant training sessions here in DC is that the black community is culturally pretty damn difficult to crack when it comes to queer rights, and that is borne out by the exit polling. while the fact that the actual percentage of black people in CA is 6.5% does mean that it is not to "blame" them for the failure, they are clearly a contributing factor in what was lost by a very close margin. recognizing the effects of racial demographics on actual outcomes is not "racist."

[cigfran-lwyd.livejournal.com]

put another way:

the black vote for obama nationwide was what, something like 95%? how much closer would the prop 8 vote have been had that same proportion seen "civil rights" in slightly wider terms? perhaps significantly?

the "voted for bush" filter is irrelevant in this regard. the question is: who voted for obama and also for prop 8? that's a set i'd like to see a demographic breakdown of.

[lisaquestions.livejournal.com]

I think it's pretty important to distinguish between noting the way voting played out along racial lines and blaming the black vote for passing Proposition 8.

Also, don't I know you? ;)

[bcholmes.livejournal.com]

See my response to xthlcm, below. For context, I've been seeing a lot of pretty crass blog entries that pretty much sound like people regret voting for Obama because of the statistics of the African-American vote on Prop 8. And that Obama is now responsible for somehow making amends.

Which, well, is far from a nuanced view of the relations between African-American communities and LGBT communities.

[xthlcm.livejournal.com]

So wait, race had nothing to do with Prop 8 passing, but then everyone in that post complains that we should have done more outreach to racial minorities?

sparkymonster's map is pointless because we're not talking about county-level correlations, we're talking about ethnic ones. The stats given on the percentages of African- and Hispanic-Americans among California's population are important, but also not terribly relevant, because they don't reflect the actual voter turnout on Tuesday. Given the margin by which Prop 8 passed and the overwhelming ratios of support among Latinos and blacks, it's almost certain that Prop 8 passed due to those differentials.

From the NYTimes: (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/06/us/politics/06marriage.html?scp=2&sq=Proposition%208&st=cse)

Frank Schubert, the campaign manager for Protect Marriage, the leading group behind Proposition 8, agreed that minority votes had put the measure over the top, saying that a strategy of working with conservative black pastors and community leaders had paid off.

“It’s a big reason why we won, no doubt about it,” he said.

I know talking about race gives liberals palpitations, but the fact is that this is a racial problem -- racial in that icky Deep Southern way that Californians like to pretend doesn't exist in their state. Maybe it sounds better if I say that Prop 8 passed due to a complex of cultural and social structures in play that are strongly correlated with both ethnic background and homophobic attitudes.

Unless we're willing to directly tackle race in a way that is simultaneously realistic and respectful (I'm thinking about the Obama campaign's targeted outreach programs that focused on issues and arguments that were of import to specific racial groups), we're never going to get past that brown, socially conservative roadblock. sparkymonster's awkward scolding is exactly the sort of liberal head-in-the-sand attitude towards race that caused us to lose.

[bcholmes.livejournal.com]

So wait, race had nothing to do with Prop 8 passing, but then everyone in that post complains that we should have done more outreach to racial minorities?

The "race had nothing to do" phrase is your phrase, not mine. And it is, in my opinion, a shell game. I'm not saying "you can't mention race"; I'm saying "there are racist ways of having this conversation and non-racist ways of having this conversation, and the kind of blame that's been going around blogs has been pretty racist."

I believe that it is valuable to take note of the statistics around various communities and demographics. What one makes of those observations is the crux of the issue. I think there's a difference between saying:

"Approximately 70% of the African-American community voted for Prop 8."

and

"Now that he's been elected, Obama must take immediate action to make up for the 70% of African-Americans who voted for Prop 8."

And, to be clear, I've read things that look like the latter statement far too often in the last 24 hours.

I think it's meaningful to take stock of the situation and make conclusions like:

- "we need better outreach to African-American groups"; or

- "maybe we need to do some active campaigning centered on black communities"; or

- "I should do more volunteering or donations to groups like the National Black Justice Coalition, who are already trying to change these attitudes and communities".

All of those suggestions dare to acknowledge race, but they're very different than "I can't believe I voted for Obama and yet black people chose to screw me over". As if he's somehow responsible for all African-Americans everywhere.

[sparkymonster.livejournal.com]

I think bcholmes comment below sums up my responses well.

I'd add two things. One is that the reason LGBT groups should engage in outreach to communities of color is because a group that is engaged in social activism focused on equality, should form coalitions to other oppressed groups. Second is that it's difficult for me to have a "head-in-the-sand attitude towards race" because race and racism affects me every day. I'm not white. I'm a queer black woman. One who gave money to the "No on Prop 8" campaign.

[redbird]

I also note that this is a convenient way of ignoring the white people who organized and mostly led the anti-marriage forces. It wasn't black churches that wrote Proposition 8, and it wasn't black Obama supporters who put it on the ballot and wrote those dishonest ads. It was middle- and upper-class straight white people.

I suspect that most of the white gay and bisexual people who are blaming black voters right now are more likely to be sitting down at a family dinner with middle-class, straight white bigots than with black heterosexuals, and sitting down to dinner together will be easier if they can ignore the idea that their relatives are part of why this thing passed.

[bcholmes.livejournal.com]

Oh, nicely put!

[nex0s.livejournal.com]

Thank you. Exactly.

N.

[sparkymonster.livejournal.com]

I suspect that most of the white gay and bisexual people who are blaming black voters right now are more likely to be sitting down at a family dinner with middle-class, straight white bigots than with black heterosexuals, and sitting down to dinner together will be easier if they can ignore the idea that their relatives are part of why this thing passed.


Oohh..good point.

Also, guess who has not rejected me for being a big queer? My African-American relatives.

[firecat]

Thanks for hosting this conversation.

I think that blaming any particular group of people for passing Prop 8 is misguided, and blaming people of color is misguided in a particularly distressing way.

I have been around the California initiative process for over a decade now. Time and again I've seen propositions with millions of dollars behind them be defeated, and I'm convinced that a lot of people actually use their own minds and beliefs to choose how to vote.

People believe that same-sex marriage will harm them and their children. Why? We need to convince them otherwise. That will be hard work but I believe it can be done.

[laura-seabrook.livejournal.com]

Well here in Australia we still have in place the "reaffirming" by the previous government that clearly states that "Marriage is a union between a man and a woman". never mind that they don't define either term. There were attempts at civil unions in the A.C.T. but I think that got overturned.

The thing that got me was that we had NO referendum on the issue, either State wide or Federally.

[cigfran-lwyd.livejournal.com]

on your second stats link:

playing fantasy football doesn't really show anything.
the fact that white voters turned out in droves to vote against affirmative action is atrocious and racist. the fact that white people turned out in droves to vote reinforce homophobia is vile.

the fact (acknowledged by that entry) that 70% of blacks in CA voted for Prop 8 is a separate observation. "blaming" that vote for the passage of Prop 8 is racist... ok, i'll grant that. but deflecting the entire question of "why did a group that voted overwhelmingly for obama, a supposedly transformational candidate whose ascendance is the realization of decades of civil rights struggle also vote (less overwhelmingly) against the civil rights of queers" with the idea that even raising the issue is wholly racist, is as pointless as the blame itself.

[bcholmes.livejournal.com]

I'm not seeing the commentary that is "deflecting the entire question..." or the commentary that says that "even raising the issue is wholly racist."

What I'm seeing is stuff that says, "I'm done supporting African-American issues until this homophobia is sorted out." That's more than "raising the issue." So I'm not understanding why you're so urgently defending the need to raise the issue.

[cigfran-lwyd.livejournal.com]

i think this is an excellent treatment:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/7/34645/1235/704/656272

[bcholmes.livejournal.com]

That is a good link. Thanks.